Radio Materialista.La Inteligencia Artificial

Intervienen , Javier Pérez Jara, David Alvargonzález,Héctor Ortega y Carlos Javier Blanco

Materialismo Filosófico y crítica de la llamada IA ( Inteligencia Artificial )

Chomsky et al. Debate sobre el desarrollo y límites de la Inteligencia Artificial en el MIT

Artificial Intelligence symposia at MIT 2013

Keynote Panel: The Golden Age: A Look at the Original Roots of Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Science, and Neuroscience
Entrevista de Yarden Katz, sobre el tema de la Inteligencia Artificial , en The Atlantic, a Noam Chomsky

20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 1/27
YARDEN KATZ NOV 1 2012, 2:22 PM ET

An extended conversation with the legendary linguist

Graham Gordon Ramsay
If one were to rank a list of civilization’s greatest and most elusive intellectual
challenges, the problem of “decoding” ourselves — understanding the inner
workings of our minds and our brains, and how the architecture of these
elements is encoded in our genome — would surely be at the top. Yet the diverse
fields that took on this challenge, from philosophy and psychology to computer
science and neuroscience, have been fraught with disagreement about the right
In 1956, the computer scientist John McCarthy coined the term “Artificial
Intelligence” (AI) to describe the study of intelligence by implementing its
essential features on a computer. Instantiating an intelligent system using manmade
hardware, rather than our own “biological hardware” of cells and tissues,
would show ultimate understanding, and have obvious practical applications in
the creation of intelligent devices or even robots.
Some of McCarthy’s colleagues in neighboring departments, however, were more
interested in how intelligence is implemented in humans (and other animals)
first. Noam Chomsky and others worked on what became cognitive science, a
field aimed at uncovering the mental representations and rules that underlie our
perceptual and cognitive abilities. Chomsky and his colleagues had to overthrow
the then-dominant paradigm of behaviorism, championed by Harvard
psychologist B.F. Skinner, where animal behavior was reduced to a simple set of
Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial
Intelligence Went Wrong

20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 2/27
associations between an action and its subsequent reward or punishment. The
undoing of Skinner’s grip on psychology is commonly marked by Chomsky’s 1967
critical review of Skinner’s book Verbal Behavior, a book in which Skinner
attempted to explain linguistic ability using behaviorist principles.
Skinner’s approach stressed the historical associations between a stimulus and
the animal’s response — an approach easily framed as a kind of empirical
statistical analysis, predicting the future as a function of the past. Chomsky’s
conception of language, on the other hand, stressed the complexity of internal
representations, encoded in the genome, and their maturation in light of the right
data into a sophisticated computational system, one that cannot be usefully
broken down into a set of associations. Behaviorist principles of associations could
not explain the richness of linguistic knowledge, our endlessly creative use of it,
or how quickly children acquire it with only minimal and imperfect exposure to
language presented by their environment. The “language faculty,” as Chomsky
referred to it, was part of the organism’s genetic endowment, much like the
visual system, the immune system and the circulatory system, and we ought to
approach it just as we approach these other more down-to-earth biological
David Marr, a neuroscientist colleague of Chomsky’s at MIT, defined a general
framework for studying complex biological systems (like the brain) in his
influential book Vision, one that Chomsky’s analysis of the language capacity
more or less fits into. According to Marr, a complex biological system can be
understood at three distinct levels. The first level (“computational level”)
describes the input and output to the system, which define the task the system is
performing. In the case of the visual system, the input might be the image
projected on our retina and the output might our brain’s identification of the
objects present in the image we had observed. The second level (“algorithmic
level”) describes the procedure by which an input is converted to an output, i.e.
how the image on our retina can be processed to achieve the task described by
the computational level. Finally, the third level (“implementation level”)
describes how our own biological hardware of cells implements the procedure
described by the algorithmic level.
The approach taken by Chomsky and Marr toward understanding how our
minds achieve what they do is as different as can be from behaviorism. The
emphasis here is on the internal structure of the system that enables it to
perform a task, rather than on external association between past behavior of the
system and the environment. The goal is to dig into the “black box” that drives
the system and describe its inner workings, much like how a computer scientist
would explain how a cleverly designed piece of software works and how it can be
executed on a desktop computer.
As written today, the history of cognitive science is a story of the unequivocal
triumph of an essentially Chomskyian approach over Skinner’s behaviorist
paradigm — an achievement commonly referred to as the “cognitive revolution,”
though Chomsky himself rejects this term. While this may be a relatively
accurate depiction in cognitive science and psychology, behaviorist thinking is far
from dead in related disciplines. Behaviorist experimental paradigms and
associationist explanations for animal behavior are used routinely by
neuroscientists who aim to study the neurobiology of behavior in laboratory
animals such as rodents, where the systematic three-level framework advocated
by Marr is not applied.
In May of last year, during the 150th anniversary of the Massachusetts Institute
of Technology, a symposium on “Brains, Minds and Machines” took place, where
leading computer scientists, psychologists and neuroscientists gathered to
discuss the past and future of artificial intelligence and its connection to the
The gathering was meant to inspire multidisciplinary enthusiasm for the revival
of the scientific question from which the field of artificial intelligence originated:
how does intelligence work? How does our brain give rise to our cognitive
abilities, and could this ever be implemented in a machine?

20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 3/27

Noam Chomsky, speaking in the symposium, wasn’t so enthused. Chomsky
critiqued the field of AI for adopting an approach reminiscent of behaviorism,
except in more modern, computationally sophisticated form. Chomsky argued
that the field’s heavy use of statistical techniques to pick regularities in masses of
data is unlikely to yield the explanatory insight that science ought to offer. For
Chomsky, the “new AI” — focused on using statistical learning techniques to
better mine and predict data — is unlikely to yield general principles about the
nature of intelligent beings or about cognition.
This critique sparked an elaborate reply to Chomsky from Google’s director of
research and noted AI researcher, Peter Norvig, who defended the use of
statistical models and argued that AI’s new methods and definition of progress is
not far off from what happens in the other sciences.
Chomsky acknowledged that the statistical approach might have practical value,
just as in the example of a useful search engine, and is enabled by the advent of
fast computers capable of processing massive data. But as far as a science goes,
Chomsky would argue it is inadequate, or more harshly, kind of shallow. We
wouldn’t have taught the computer much about what the phrase “physicist Sir
Isaac Newton” really means, even if we can build a search engine that returns
sensible hits to users who type the phrase in.
It turns out that related disagreements have been pressing biologists who try to
understand more traditional biological systems of the sort Chomsky likened to
the language faculty. Just as the computing revolution enabled the massive data
analysis that fuels the “new AI”, so has the sequencing revolution in modern
biology given rise to the blooming fields of genomics and systems biology. Highthroughput
sequencing, a technique by which millions of DNA molecules can be
read quickly and cheaply, turned the sequencing of a genome from a decade-long
expensive venture to an affordable, commonplace laboratory procedure. Rather
than painstakingly studying genes in isolation, we can now observe the behavior
of a system of genes acting in cells as a whole, in hundreds or thousands of
different conditions.
The sequencing revolution has just begun and a staggering amount of data has
already been obtained, bringing with it much promise and hype for new
therapeutics and diagnoses for human disease. For example, when a conventional
cancer drug fails to work for a group of patients, the answer might lie in the
genome of the patients, which might have a special property that prevents the
drug from acting. With enough data comparing the relevant features of genomes
from these cancer patients and the right control groups, custom-made drugs
might be discovered, leading to a kind of “personalized medicine.” Implicit in this
endeavor is the assumption that with enough sophisticated statistical tools and a
large enough collection of data, signals of interest can be weeded it out from the
noise in large and poorly understood biological systems.
The success of fields like personalized medicine and other offshoots of the
sequencing revolution and the systems-biology approach hinge upon our ability
to deal with what Chomsky called “masses of unanalyzed data” — placing biology
in the center of a debate similar to the one taking place in psychology and
artificial intelligence since the 1960s.
Systems biology did not rise without skepticism. The great geneticist and Nobelprize
winning biologist Sydney Brenner once defined the field as “low input, high
throughput, no output science.” Brenner, a contemporary of Chomsky who also
participated in the same symposium on AI, was equally skeptical about new
systems approaches to understanding the brain. When describing an up-andcoming
systems approach to mapping brain circuits called Connectomics, which
seeks to map the wiring of all neurons in the brain (i.e. diagramming which nerve
cells are connected to others), Brenner called it a “form of insanity.”
Brenner’s catch-phrase bite at systems biology and related techniques in
neuroscience is not far off from Chomsky’s criticism of AI. An unlikely pair,
systems biology and artificial intelligence both face the same fundamental task of
reverse-engineering a highly complex system whose inner workings are largely a
mystery. Yet, ever-improving technologies yield massive data related to the
system, only a fraction of which might be relevant. Do we rely on powerful
computing and statistical approaches to tease apart signal from noise, or do we
look for the more basic principles that underlie the system and explain its
essence? The urge to gather more data is irresistible, though it’s not always clear
what theoretical framework these data might fit into. These debates raise an old
and general question in the philosophy of science: What makes a satisfying
scientific theory or explanation, and how ought success be defined for science?
I sat with Noam Chomsky on an April afternoon in a somewhat disheveled
conference room, tucked in a hidden corner of Frank Gehry’s dazzling Stata
Center at MIT. I wanted to better understand Chomsky’s critique of artificial
intelligence and why it may be headed in the wrong direction. I also wanted to
explore the implications of this critique for other branches of science, such
neuroscience and systems biology, which all face the challenge of reverseengineering
complex systems — and where researchers often find themselves in
an ever-expanding sea of massive data. The motivation for the interview was in
part that Chomsky is rarely asked about scientific topics nowadays. Journalists
are too occupied with getting his views on U.S. foreign policy, the Middle East,
the Obama administration and other standard topics. Another reason was that
Chomsky belongs to a rare and special breed of intellectuals, one that is quickly
becoming extinct. Ever since Isaiah Berlin’s famous essay, it has become a
favorite pastime of academics to place various thinkers and scientists on the
“Hedgehog-Fox” continuum: the Hedgehog, a meticulous and specialized worker,
driven by incremental progress in a clearly defined field versus the Fox, a
flashier, ideas-driven thinker who jumps from question to question, ignoring field
boundaries and applying his or her skills where they seem applicable. Chomsky is
special because he makes this distinction seem like a tired old cliche. Chomsky’s
depth doesn’t come at the expense of versatility or breadth, yet for the most
part, he devoted his entire scientific career to the study of defined topics in
linguistics and cognitive science. Chomsky’s work has had tremendous influence
on a variety of fields outside his own, including computer science and philosophy,
and he has not shied away from discussing and critiquing the influence of these
ideas, making him a particularly interesting person to interview. Videos of the
interview can be found here.
I want to start with a very basic question. At the beginning of AI,
people were extremely optimistic about the field’s progress, but it
hasn’t turned out that way. Why has it been so difficult? If you ask
neuroscientists why understanding the brain is so difficult, they give
you very intellectually unsatisfying answers, like that the brain has
billions of cells, and we can’t record from all of them, and so on.
Chomsky: There’s something to that. If you take a look at the progress of
science, the sciences are kind of a continuum, but they’re broken up into fields.
The greatest progress is in the sciences that study the simplest systems. So take,
say physics — greatest progress there. But one of the reasons is that the
physicists have an advantage that no other branch of sciences has. If something
gets too complicated, they hand it to someone else.
Like the chemists?
Chomsky: If a molecule is too big, you give it to the chemists. The chemists, for
them, if the molecule is too big or the system gets too big, you give it to the
biologists. And if it gets too big for them, they give it to the psychologists, and
finally it ends up in the hands of the literary critic, and so on. So what the
neuroscientists are saying is not completely false.
However, it could be — and it has been argued in my view rather plausibly,
though neuroscientists don’t like it — that neuroscience for the last couple
hundred years has been on the wrong track. There’s a fairly recent book by a
very good cognitive neuroscientist, Randy Gallistel and King, arguing — in my
view, plausibly — that neuroscience developed kind of enthralled to
associationism and related views of the way humans and animals work. And as a
result they’ve been looking for things that have the properties of associationist
“It could be — and it has
been argued, in my view
rather plausibly, though
neuroscientists don’t
like it — that
neuroscience for the
last couple hundred
years has been on the
wrong track.”
developed kind of
enthralled to
associationism and
related views of the way
humans and animals
work. And as a result
Like Hebbian plasticity? [Editor’s note: A
theory, attributed to Donald Hebb, that
associations between an environmental
stimulus and a response to the stimulus can
be encoded by strengthening of synaptic
connections between neurons.]
Chomsky: Well, like strengthening synaptic
connections. Gallistel has been arguing for years
that if you want to study the brain properly you
should begin, kind of like Marr, by asking what
tasks is it performing. So he’s mostly interested in
insects. So if you want to study, say, the neurology
of an ant, you ask what does the ant do? It turns
out the ants do pretty complicated things, like path integration, for example. If
you look at bees, bee navigation involves quite complicated computations,
involving position of the sun, and so on and so forth. But in general what he
argues is that if you take a look at animal cognition, human too, it’s computational
systems. Therefore, you want to look the units of computation. Think about a
Turing machine, say, which is the simplest form of computation, you have to find
units that have properties like “read”, “write” and “address.” That’s the minimal
computational unit, so you got to look in the brain for those. You’re never going
to find them if you look for strengthening of synaptic connections or field
properties, and so on. You’ve got to start by looking for what’s there and what’s
working and you see that from Marr’s highest level.
Right, but most neuroscientists do not sit down and describe the
inputs and outputs to the problem that they’re studying. They’re
more driven by say, putting a mouse in a learning task and recording
as many neurons possible, or asking if Gene X is required for the
learning task, and so on. These are the kinds of statements that their
experiments generate.
Chomsky: That’s right..
Is that conceptually flawed?
Chomsky: Well, you know, you may get useful information from it. But if what’s
actually going on is some kind of computation involving computational units,
you’re not going to find them that way. It’s kind of, looking at the wrong lamp
post, sort of. It’s a debate… I don’t think Gallistel’s position is very widely
accepted among neuroscientists, but it’s not an implausible position, and it’s
basically in the spirit of Marr’s analysis. So when you’re studying vision, he
argues, you first ask what kind of computational tasks is the visual system
carrying out. And then you look for an algorithm that might carry out those
computations and finally you search for mechanisms of the kind that would make
the algorithm work. Otherwise, you may never find anything. There are many
examples of this, even in the hard sciences, but certainly in the soft sciences.
People tend to study what you know how to study, I mean that makes sense.
You have certain experimental techniques, you have certain level of
understanding, you try to push the envelope — which is okay, I mean, it’s not a
criticism, but people do what you can do. On the other hand, it’s worth thinking
whether you’re aiming in the right direction. And it could be that if you take
roughly the Marr-Gallistel point of view, which personally I’m sympathetic to,
you would work differently, look for different kind of experiments.
Right, so I think a key idea in Marr is, like
you said, finding the right units to
describing the problem, sort of the right
“level of abstraction” if you will. So if we
take a concrete example of a new field in
neuroscience, called Connectomics, where
the goal is to find the wiring diagram of very
complex organisms, find the connectivity of
all the neurons in say human cerebral
they’ve been looking for
things that have the
properties of
“I have to say, myself,
that I was very skeptical
about the original work
[in AI]. I thought it was
cortex, or mouse cortex. This approach was
criticized by Sidney Brenner, who in many
ways is [historically] one of the originators
of the approach. Advocates of this field
don’t stop to ask if the wiring diagram is the
right level of abstraction — maybe it’s not,
so what is your view on that?
Chomsky: Well, there are much simpler questions. Like here at MIT, there’s
been an interdisciplinary program on the nematode C. elegans for decades, and
as far as I understand, even with this miniscule animal, where you know the
wiring diagram, I think there’s 800 neurons or something …
I think 300..
Chomsky: …Still, you can’t predict what the thing [C. elegans nematode] is
going to do. Maybe because you’re looking in the wrong place.
Yarden Katz
I’d like to shift the topic to different methodologies that were used in
AI. So “Good Old Fashioned AI,” as it’s labeled now, made strong use
of formalisms in the tradition of Gottlob Frege and Bertrand Russell,
mathematical logic for example, or derivatives of it, like
nonmonotonic reasoning and so on. It’s interesting from a history of
science perspective that even very recently, these approaches have
been almost wiped out from the mainstream and have been largely
replaced — in the field that calls itself AI now — by probabilistic and
statistical models. My question is, what do you think explains that
shift and is it a step in the right direction?
Chomsky: I heard Pat Winston give a talk about this years ago. One of the
points he made was that AI and robotics got to the point where you could
actually do things that were useful, so it turned to the practical applications and
somewhat, maybe not abandoned, but put to the side, the more fundamental
scientific questions, just caught up in the success of the technology and achieving
specific goals.
So it shifted to engineering…
Chomsky: It became… well, which is
understandable, but would of course direct people
away from the original questions. I have to say,
myself, that I was very skeptical about the original
work. I thought it was first of all way too optimistic,
it was assuming you could achieve things that
first of all way too
optimistic, it was
assuming you could
achieve things that
required real
understanding of
systems that were
barely understood, and
you just can’t get to that
understanding by
throwing a complicated
machine at it.”
required real understanding of systems that were
barely understood, and you just can’t get to that
understanding by throwing a complicated machine
at it. If you try to do that you are led to a
conception of success, which is self-reinforcing,
because you do get success in terms of this
conception, but it’s very different from what’s done
in the sciences. So for example, take an extreme
case, suppose that somebody says he wants to
eliminate the physics department and do it the
right way. The “right” way is to take endless
numbers of videotapes of what’s happening outside
the video, and feed them into the biggest and
fastest computer, gigabytes of data, and do complex
statistical analysis — you know, Bayesian this and
that [Editor’s note: A modern approach to analysis
of data which makes heavy use of probability theory.] — and you’ll get some kind
of prediction about what’s gonna happen outside the window next. In fact, you
get a much better prediction than the physics department will ever give. Well, if
success is defined as getting a fair approximation to a mass of chaotic unanalyzed
data, then it’s way better to do it this way than to do it the way the physicists do,
you know, no thought experiments about frictionless planes and so on and so
forth. But you won’t get the kind of understanding that the sciences have always
been aimed at — what you’ll get at is an approximation to what’s happening.
And that’s done all over the place. Suppose you want to predict tomorrow’s
weather. One way to do it is okay I’ll get my statistical priors, if you like, there’s a
high probability that tomorrow’s weather here will be the same as it was
yesterday in Cleveland, so I’ll stick that in, and where the sun is will have some
effect, so I’ll stick that in, and you get a bunch of assumptions like that, you run
the experiment, you look at it over and over again, you correct it by Bayesian
methods, you get better priors. You get a pretty good approximation of what
tomorrow’s weather is going to be. That’s not what meteorologists do — they
want to understand how it’s working. And these are just two different concepts of
what success means, of what achievement is. In my own field, language fields, it’s
all over the place. Like computational cognitive science applied to language, the
concept of success that’s used is virtually always this. So if you get more and
more data, and better and better statistics, you can get a better and better
approximation to some immense corpus of text, like everything in The Wall
Street Journal archives — but you learn nothing about the language.
A very different approach, which I think is the right approach, is to try to see if
you can understand what the fundamental principles are that deal with the core
properties, and recognize that in the actual usage, there’s going to be a thousand
other variables intervening — kind of like what’s happening outside the window,
and you’ll sort of tack those on later on if you want better approximations, that’s
a different approach. These are just two different concepts of science. The second
one is what science has been since Galileo, that’s modern science. The
approximating unanalyzed data kind is sort of a new approach, not totally,
there’s things like it in the past. It’s basically a new approach that has been
accelerated by the existence of massive memories, very rapid processing, which
enables you to do things like this that you couldn’t have done by hand. But I
think, myself, that it is leading subjects like computational cognitive science into a
direction of maybe some practical applicability… engineering?
Chomsky: …But away from understanding. Yeah, maybe some effective
engineering. And it’s kind of interesting to see what happened to engineering. So
like when I got to MIT, it was 1950s, this was an engineering school. There was a
very good math department, physics department, but they were service
departments. They were teaching the engineers tricks they could use. The
electrical engineering department, you learned how to build a circuit. Well if you
went to MIT in the 1960s, or now, it’s completely different. No matter what
engineering field you’re in, you learn the same basic science and mathematics.
And then maybe you learn a little bit about how to apply it. But that’s a very
different approach. And it resulted maybe from the fact that really for the first
time in history, the basic sciences, like physics, had something really to tell
engineers. And besides, technologies began to change very fast, so not very much
point in learning the technologies of today if it’s going to be different 10 years
from now. So you have to learn the fundamental science that’s going to be
applicable to whatever comes along next. And the same thing pretty much
happened in medicine. So in the past century, again for the first time, biology had
something serious to tell to the practice of medicine, so you had to understand
biology if you want to be a doctor, and technologies again will change. Well, I
think that’s the kind of transition from something like an art, that you learn how
to practice — an analog would be trying to match some data that you don’t
understand, in some fashion, maybe building something that will work — to
science, what happened in the modern period, roughly Galilean science.
I see. Returning to the point about Bayesian statistics in models of
language and cognition. You’ve argued famously that speaking of the
probability of a sentence is unintelligible on its own…
Chomsky: ..Well you can get a number if you want, but it doesn’t mean
It doesn’t mean anything. But it seems like there’s almost a trivial
way to unify the probabilistic method with acknowledging that there
are very rich internal mental representations, comprised of rules
and other symbolic structures, and the goal of probability theory is
just to link noisy sparse data in the world with these internal
symbolic structures. And that doesn’t commit you to saying anything
about how these structures were acquired — they could have been
there all along, or there partially with some parameters being tuned,
whatever your conception is. But probability theory just serves as a
kind of glue between noisy data and very rich mental
Chomsky: Well… there’s nothing wrong with probability theory, there’s nothing
wrong with statistics.
But does it have a role?
Chomsky: If you can use it, fine. But the question is what are you using it for?
First of all, first question is, is there any point in understanding noisy data? Is
there some point to understanding what’s going on outside the window?
Well, we are bombarded with it [noisy data], it’s one of Marr’s
examples, we are faced with noisy data all the time, from our retina
Chomsky: That’s true. But what he says is: Let’s ask ourselves how the
biological system is picking out of that noise things that are significant. The retina
is not trying to duplicate the noise that comes in. It’s saying I’m going to look for
this, that and the other thing. And it’s the same with say, language acquisition.
The newborn infant is confronted with massive noise, what William James called
“a blooming, buzzing confusion,” just a mess. If say, an ape or a kitten or a bird or
whatever is presented with that noise, that’s where it ends. However, the human
infants, somehow, instantaneously and reflexively, picks out of the noise some
scattered subpart which is language-related. That’s the first step. Well, how is it
doing that? It’s not doing it by statistical analysis, because the ape can do roughly
the same probabilistic analysis. It’s looking for particular things. So
psycholinguists, neurolinguists, and others are trying to discover the particular
parts of the computational system and of the neurophysiology that are somehow
tuned to particular aspects of the environment. Well, it turns out that there
actually are neural circuits which are reacting to particular kinds of rhythm,
which happen to show up in language, like syllable length and so on. And there’s
some evidence that that’s one of the first things that the infant brain is seeking —
rhythmic structures. And going back to Gallistel and Marr, its got some
computational system inside which is saying “okay, here’s what I do with these
“It’s worth remembering
that with regard to
cognitive science, we’re
kind of pre-Galilean, just
beginning to open up
the subject.”
things” and say, by nine months, the typical infant has rejected — eliminated
from its repertoire — the phonetic distinctions that aren’t used in its own
language. So initially of course, any infant is tuned to any language. But say, a
Japanese kid at nine months won’t react to the R-L distinction anymore, that’s
kind of weeded out. So the system seems to sort out lots of possibilities and
restrict it to just ones that are part of the language, and there’s a narrow set of
those. You can make up a non-language in which the infant could never do it, and
then you’re looking for other things. For example, to get into a more abstract
kind of language, there’s substantial evidence by now that such a simple thing as
linear order, what precedes what, doesn’t enter into the syntactic and semantic
computational systems, they’re just not designed to look for linear order. So you
find overwhelmingly that more abstract notions of distance are computed and
not linear distance, and you can find some neurophysiological evidence for this,
too. Like if artificial languages are invented and taught to people, which use linear
order, like you negate a sentence by doing something to the third word. People
can solve the puzzle, but apparently the standard language areas of the brain are
not activated — other areas are activated, so they’re treating it as a puzzle not as
a language problem. You need more work, but…
You take that as convincing evidence that activation or lack of
activation for the brain area …
Chomsky: …It’s evidence, you’d want more of course. But this is the kind of
evidence, both on the linguistics side you look at how languages work — they
don’t use things like third word in sentence. Take a simple sentence like
“Instinctively, Eagles that fly swim”, well, “instinctively” goes with swim, it
doesn’t go with fly, even though it doesn’t make sense. And that’s reflexive.
“Instinctively”, the adverb, isn’t looking for the nearest verb, it’s looking for the
structurally most prominent one. That’s a much harder computation. But that’s
the only computation which is ever used. Linear order is a very easy
computation, but it’s never used. There’s a ton of evidence like this, and a little
neurolinguistic evidence, but they point in the same direction. And as you go to
more complex structures, that’s where you find more and more of that.
That’s, in my view at least, the way to try to discover how the system is actually
working, just like in vision, in Marr’s lab, people like Shimon Ullman discovered
some pretty remarkable things like the rigidity principle. You’re not going to find
that by statistical analysis of data. But he did find it by carefully designed
experiments. Then you look for the neurophysiology, and see if you can find
something there that carries out these computations. I think it’s the same in
language, the same in studying our arithmetical capacity, planning, almost
anything you look at. Just trying to deal with the unanalyzed chaotic data is
unlikely to get you anywhere, just like as it wouldn’t have gotten Galileo
anywhere. In fact, if you go back to this, in the 17th century, it wasn’t easy for
people like Galileo and other major scientists to convince the NSF [National
Science Foundation] of the day — namely, the aristocrats — that any of this
made any sense. I mean, why study balls rolling down frictionless planes, which
don’t exist. Why not study the growth of flowers? Well, if you tried to study the
growth of flowers at that time, you would get maybe a statistical analysis of what
things looked like.
It’s worth remembering that with regard to
cognitive science, we’re kind of pre-Galilean, just
beginning to open up the subject. And I think you
can learn something from the way science worked
[back then]. In fact, one of the founding
experiments in history of chemistry, was about
1640 or so, when somebody proved to the
satisfaction of the scientific world, all the way up to
Newton, that water can be turned into living
matter. The way they did it was — of course,
nobody knew anything about photosynthesis — so what you do is you take a pile
of earth, you heat it so all the water escapes. You weigh it, and put it in a branch
of a willow tree, and pour water on it, and measure you the amount of water you
put in. When you’re done, you the willow tree is grown, you again take the earth
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 10/27
and heat it so all the water is gone — same as before. Therefore, you’ve shown
that water can turn into an oak tree or something. It is an experiment, it’s sort of
right, but it’s just that you don’t know what things you ought to be looking for.
And they weren’t known until Priestly found that air is a component of the world,
it’s got nitrogen, and so on, and you learn about photosynthesis and so on. Then
you can redo the experiment and find out what’s going on. But you can easily be
misled by experiments that seem to work because you don’t know enough about
what to look for. And you can be misled even more if you try to study the growth
of trees by just taking a lot of data about how trees growing, feeding it into a
massive computer, doing some statistics and getting an approximation of what
In the domain of biology, would you consider the work of Mendel, as
a successful case, where you take this noisy data — essentially counts
— and you leap to postulate this theoretical object…
Chomsky: …Well, throwing out a lot of the data that didn’t work.
…But seeing the ratio that made sense, given the theory.
Chomsky: Yeah, he did the right thing. He let the theory guide the data. There
was counter data which was more or less dismissed, you know you don’t put it in
your papers. And he was of course talking about things that nobody could find,
like you couldn’t find the units that he was postulating. But that’s, sure, that’s the
way science works. Same with chemistry. Chemistry, until my childhood, not
that long ago, was regarded as a calculating device. Because you couldn’t reduce
to physics. So it’s just some way of calculating the result of experiments. The
Bohr atom was treated that way. It’s the way of calculating the results of
experiments but it can’t be real science, because you can’t reduce it to physics,
which incidentally turned out to be true, you couldn’t reduce it to physics
because physics was wrong. When quantum physics came along, you could unify
it with virtually unchanged chemistry. So the project of reduction was just the
wrong project. The right project was to see how these two ways of looking at the
world could be unified. And it turned out to be a surprise — they were unified by
radically changing the underlying science. That could very well be the case with
say, psychology and neuroscience. I mean, neuroscience is nowhere near as
advanced as physics was a century ago.
That would go against the reductionist approach of looking for
molecules that are correlates of…
Chomsky: Yeah. In fact, the reductionist approach has often been shown to be
wrong. The unification approach makes sense. But unification might not turn out
to be reduction, because the core science might be misconceived as in the
physics-chemistry case and I suspect very likely in the neuroscience-psychology
case. If Gallistel is right, that would be a case in point that yeah, they can be
unified, but with a different approach to the neurosciences.
So is that a worthy goal of unification or the fields should proceed in
Chomsky: Well, unification is kind of an intuitive ideal, part of the scientific
mystique, if you like. It’s that you’re trying to find a unified theory of the world.
Now maybe there isn’t one, maybe different parts work in different ways, but
your assumption is until I’m proven wrong definitively, I’ll assume that there’s a
unified account of the world, and it’s my task to try to find it. And the unification
may not come out by reduction — it often doesn’t. And that’s kind of the guiding
logic of David Marr’s approach: what you discover at the computational level
ought to be unified with what you’ll some day find out at the mechanism level,
but maybe not in terms of the way we now understand the mechanisms.
And implicit in Marr it seems that you can’t work on all three in
parallel [computational, algorithmic, implementation levels], it has
to proceed top-down, which is a very stringent requirement, given
that science usually doesn’t work that way.
Chomsky: Well, he wouldn’t have said it has to be rigid. Like for example,
discovering more about the mechanisms might lead you to change your concept
of computation. But there’s kind of a logical precedence, which isn’t necessarily
the research precedence, since in research everything goes on at the same time.
But I think that the rough picture is okay. Though I should mention that Marr’s
conception was designed for input systems…
information-processing systems…
Chomsky: Yeah, like vision. There’s some data out there — it’s a processing
system — and something goes on inside. It isn’t very well designed for cognitive
systems. Like take your capacity to take out arithmetical operations..
It’s very poor, but yeah…
Chomsky: Okay [laughs]. But it’s an internal capacity, you know your brain is a
controlling unit of some kind of Turing machine, and it has access to some
external data, like memory, time and so on. And in principle, you could multiply
anything, but of course not in practice. If you try to find out what that internal
system is of yours, the Marr hierarchy doesn’t really work very well. You can
talk about the computational level — maybe the rules I have are Peano’s axioms
[Editor’s note: a mathematical theory (named after Italian mathematician
Giuseppe Peano) that describes a core set of basic rules of arithmetic and natural
numbers, from which many useful facts about arithmetic can be deduced], or
something, whatever they are — that’s the computational level. In theory,
though we don’t know how, you can talk about the neurophysiological level,
nobody knows how, but there’s no real algorithmic level. Because there’s no
calculation of knowledge, it’s just a system of knowledge. To find out the nature
of the system of knowledge, there is no algorithm, because there is no process.
Using the system of knowledge, that’ll have a process, but that’s something
But since we make mistakes, isn’t that evidence of a process gone
Chomsky: That’s the process of using the internal system. But the internal
system itself is not a process, because it doesn’t have an algorithm. Take, say,
ordinary mathematics. If you take Peano’s axioms and rules of inference, they
determine all arithmetical computations, but there’s no algorithm. If you ask how
does a number theoretician applies these, well all kinds of ways. Maybe you don’t
start with the axioms and start with the rules of inference. You take the
theorem, and see if I can establish a lemma, and if it works, then see if I can try
to ground this lemma in something, and finally you get a proof which is a
geometrical object.
But that’s a fundamentally different activity from me adding up
small numbers in my head, which surely does have some kind of
Chomsky: Not necessarily. There’s an algorithm for the process in both cases.
But there’s no algorithm for the system itself, it’s kind of a category mistake. You
don’t ask the question what’s the process defined by Peano’s axioms and the
rules of inference, there’s no process. There can be a process of using them. And
it could be a complicated process, and the same is true of your calculating. The
internal system that you have — for that, the question of process doesn’t arise.
But for your using that internal system, it arises, and you may carry out
multiplications all kinds of ways. Like maybe when you add 7 and 6, let’s say, one
algorithm is to say “I’ll see how much it takes to get to 10” — it takes 3, and now
I’ve got 4 left, so I gotta go from 10 and add 4, I get 14. That’s an algorithm for
adding — it’s actually one I was taught in kindergarten. That’s one way to add.
But there are other ways to add — there’s no kind of right algorithm. These are
algorithms for carrying out the process the cognitive system that’s in your head.
And for that system, you don’t ask about algorithms. You can ask about the
computational level, you can ask about the mechanism level. But the algorithm
level doesn’t exist for that system. It’s the same with language. Language is kind
of like the arithmetical capacity. There’s some system in there that determines
artificial-intelligence-went-wrong/261637/?single_page=true 12/27
the sound and meaning of an infinite array of possible sentences. But there’s no
question about what the algorithm is. Like there’s no question about what a
formal system of arithmetic tells you about proving theorems. The use of the
system is a process and you can study it in terms of Marr’s level. But it’s
important to be conceptually clear about these distinctions.
It just seems like an astounding task to go from a computational
level theory, like Peano axioms, to Marr level 3 of the…
Chomsky: mechanisms…
…mechanisms and implementations…
Chomsky: Oh yeah. Well..
..without an algorithm at least.
Chomsky: Well, I don’t think that’s true. Maybe information about how it’s
used, that’ll tell you something about the mechanisms. But some higher
intelligence — maybe higher than ours — would see that there’s an internal
system, its got a physiological basis, and I can study the physiological basis of
that internal system. Not even looking at the process by which it’s used. Maybe
looking at the process by which it’s used maybe gives you helpful information
about how to proceed. But it’s conceptually a different problem. That’s the
question of what’s the best way to study something. So maybe the best way to
study the relation between Peano’s axioms and neurons is by watching
mathematicians prove theorems. But that’s just because it’ll give you information
that may be helpful. The actual end result of that will be an account of the
system in the brain, the physiological basis for it, with no reference to any
algorithm. The algorithms are about a process of using it, which may help you get
answers. Maybe like incline planes tell you something about the rate of fall, but if
you take a look at Newton’s laws, they don’t say anything about incline planes.
Right. So the logic for studying cognitive and language systems using
this kind of Marr approach makes sense, but since you’ve argued that
language capacity is part of the genetic endowment, you could apply
it to other biological systems, like the immune system, the
circulatory system….
Chomsky: Certainly, I think it’s very similar. You can say the same thing about
study of the immune system.
It might even be simpler, in fact, to do it for those systems than for
Chomsky: Though you’d expect different answers. You can do it for the
digestive system. Suppose somebody’s studying the digestive system. Well,
they’re not going to study what happens when you have a stomach flu, or when
you’ve just eaten a big Mac, or something. Let’s go back to taking pictures
outside the window. One way of studying the digestive system is just to take all
data you can find about what digestive systems do under any circumstances, toss
the data into a computer, do statistical analysis — you get something. But it’s not
gonna be what any biologist would do. They want to abstract away, at the very
beginning, from what are presumed — maybe wrongly, you can always be wrong
— irrelevant variables, like do you have stomach flu.
But that’s precisely what the biologists are doing, they are taking the
sick people with the sick digestive system, comparing them to the
normals, and measuring these molecular properties.
Chomsky: They’re doing it in an advanced stage. They already understand a lot
about the study of the digestive system before we compare them, otherwise you
wouldn’t know what to compare, and why is one sick and one isn’t.
Well, they’re relying on statistical analysis to pick out the features
that discriminate. It’s a highly fundable approach, because you’re
claiming to study sick people.
“There’s no reason to
assume that all of
biology is
computational. There
may be reasons to
assume that cognition
Chomsky: It may be the way to fund things. Like maybe the way to fund study
of language is to say, maybe help cure autism. That’s a different question
[laughs]. But the logic of the search is to begin by studying the system abstracted
from what you, plausibly, take to be irrelevant intrusions, see if you can find its
basic nature — then ask, well, what happens when I bring in some of this other
stuff, like stomach flu.
It still seems like there’s a difficulty in applying Marr’s levels to
these kinds of systems. If you ask, what is the computational
problem that the brain is solving, we have kind of an answer, it’s sort
of like a computer. But if you ask, what is the computational
problem that’s being solved by the lung, that’s very difficult to even
think — it’s not obviously an information-processing kind of
Chomsky: No, but there’s no reason to assume
that all of biology is computational. There may be
reasons to assume that cognition is. And in fact
Gallistel is not saying that everything is in the body
ought to be studied by finding read/write/address
It just seems contrary to any evolutionary
intuition. These systems evolved together,
reusing many of the same parts, same
molecules, pathways. Cells are computing
Chomsky: You don’t study the lung by asking what cells compute. You study
the immune system and the visual system, but you’re not going to expect to find
the same answers. An organism is a highly modular system, has a lot of complex
subsystems, which are more or less internally integrated. They operate by
different principles. The biology is highly modular. You don’t assume it’s all just
one big mess, all acting the same way.
No, sure, but I’m saying you would apply the same approach to study
each of the modules.
Chomsky: Not necessarily, not if the modules are different. Some of the
modules may be computational, others may not be.
So what would you think would be an adequate theory that is
explanatory, rather than just predicting data, the statistical way,
what would be an adequate theory of these systems that are not
computing systems — can we even understand them?
Chomsky: Sure. You can understand a lot about say, what makes an embryo
turn into a chicken rather than a mouse, let’s say. It’s a very intricate system,
involves all kinds of chemical interactions, all sorts of other things. Even the
nematode, it’s by no means obviously — in fact there are reports from the study
here — that it’s all just a matter of a neural net. You have to look into complex
chemical interactions that take place in the brain, in the nervous system. You
have to look into each system on its own. These chemical interactions might not
be related to how your arithmetical capacity works — probably aren’t. But they
might very well be related to whether you decide to raise your arm or lower it.
Though if you study the chemical interactions it might lead you into
what you’ve called just a redescription of the phenomena.
Chomsky: Or an explanation. Because maybe that’s directly, crucially, involved.
But if you explain it in terms of chemical X has to be turned on, or
gene X has to be turned on, you’ve not really explained how
organism-determination is done. You’ve simply found a switch, and
hit that switch.
“Why do cells split into
spheres and not cubes?
It’s not random mutation
and natural selection;
it’s a law of physics.”
and such under these circumstances, and do something else under different
But if genes are the wrong level of abstraction, you’d be screwed.
Chomsky: Then you won’t get the right answer. And maybe they’re not. For
example, it’s notoriously difficult to account for how an organism arises from a
genome. There’s all kinds of production going on in the cell. If you just look at
gene action, you may not be in the right level of abstraction. You never know,
that’s what you try to study. I don’t think there’s any algorithm for answering
those questions, you try.
So I want to shift gears more toward evolution. You’ve criticized a
very interesting position you’ve called “phylogenetic empiricism.”
You’ve criticized this position for not having explanatory power. It
simply states that: well, the mind is the way it because of
adaptations to the environment that were selected for. And these
were selected for by natural selection. You’ve argued that this
doesn’t explain anything because you can always appeal to these two
principles of mutation and selection.
Chomsky: Well you can wave your hands at them, but they might be right. It
could be that, say, the development of your arithmetical capacity, arose from
random mutation and selection. If it turned out to be true, fine.
It seems like a truism.
Chomsky: Well, I mean, doesn’t mean it’s false. Truisms are true. [laughs].
But they don’t explain much.
Chomsky: Maybe that’s the highest level of
explanation you can get. You can invent a world — I
don’t think it’s our world — but you can invent a
world in which nothing happens except random
changes in objects and selection on the basis of
external forces. I don’t think that’s the way our
world works, I don’t think it’s the way any biologist
thinks it is. There are all kind of ways in which
natural law imposes channels within which selection
can take place, and some things can happen and other things don’t happen.
Plenty of things that go on in the biology in organisms aren’t like this. So take the
first step, meiosis. Why do cells split into spheres and not cubes? It’s not random
mutation and natural selection; it’s a law of physics. There’s no reason to think
that laws of physics stop there, they work all the way through.
Well, they constrain the biology, sure.
Chomsky: Okay, well then it’s not just random mutation and selection. It’s
random mutation, selection, and everything that matters, like laws of physics.
So is there room for these approaches which are now labeled
“comparative genomics”, like the Broad Institute here [at
MIT/Harvard] is generating massive amounts of data, of different
genomes, different animals, different cells under different
conditions and sequencing any molecule that is sequenceable. Is
there anything that can be gleaned about these high-level cognitive
tasks from these comparative evolutionary studies or is it
Chomsky: I am not saying it’s the wrong approach, but I don’t know anything
that can be drawn from it. Nor would you expect to.
You don’t have any examples where this evolutionary analysis has
informed something? Like Foxp2 mutations? [Editor’s note: A gene
that is thought be implicated in speech or language capacities. A
family with a stereotyped speech disorder was found to have genetic
mutations that disrupt this gene. This gene evolved to have several
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 15/27
mutations unique to the human evolutionary lineage.]
Chomsky: Foxp2 is kind of interesting, but it doesn’t have anything to do with
language. It has to do with fine motor coordinations and things like that. Which
takes place in the use of language, like when you speak you control your lips and
so on, but all that’s very peripheral to language, and we know that. So for
example, whether you use the articulatory organs or sign, you know hand
motions, it’s the same language. In fact, it’s even being analyzed and produced in
the same parts of the brain, even though one of them is moving your hands and
the other is moving your lips. So whatever the externalization is, it seems quite
peripheral. I think they’re too complicated to talk about, but I think if you look
closely at the design features of language, you get evidence for that. There are
interesting cases in the study of language where you find conflicts between
computational efficiency and communicative efficiency.
Take this case I even mentioned of linear order. If you want to know which verb
the adverb attaches to, the infant reflexively using minimal structural distance,
not minimal linear distance. Well, it’s using minimal linear distances,
computationally easy, but it requires having linear order available. And if linear
order is only a reflex of the sensory-motor system, which makes sense, it won’t
be available. That’s evidence that the mapping of the internal system to the
sensory-motor system is peripheral to the workings of the computational
But it might constrain it like physics constrains meiosis?
Chomsky: It might, but there’s very little evidence of that. So for example the
left end — left in the sense of early — of a sentence has different properties from
the right end. If you want to ask a question, let’s say “Who did you see?” You put
the “Who” infront, not in the end. In fact, in every language in which a wh-phrase
— like who, or which book, or something — moves to somewhere else, it moves to
the left, not to the right. That’s very likely a processing constraint. The sentence
opens by telling you, the hearer, here’s what kind of a sentence it is. If it’s at the
end, you have to have the whole declarative sentence, and at the end you get the
information I’m asking about. If you spell it out, it could be a processing
constraint. So that’s a case, if true, in which the processing constraint,
externalization, do affect the computational character of the syntax and
There are cases where you find clear conflicts between computational efficiency
and communicative efficiency. Take a simple case, structural ambiguity. If I say,
“Visiting relatives can be a nuisance” — that’s ambiguous. Relatives that visit, or
going to visit relatives. It turns out in every such case that’s known, the
ambiguity is derived by simply allowing the rules to function freely, with no
constraints, and that sometimes yields ambiguities. So it’s computationally
efficient, but it’s inefficient for communication, because it leads to unresolvable
Or take what are called garden-path sentences, sentences like “The horse raced
past the barn fell”. People presented with that don’t understand it, because the
way it’s put, they’re led down a garden path. “The horse raced past the barn”
sounds like a sentence, and then you ask what’s “fell” doing there at the end. On
the other hand, if you think about it, it’s a perfectly well formed sentence. It
means the horse that was raced past the barn, by someone, fell. But the rules of
the language when they just function happen to give you a sentence which is
unintelligible because of the garden-path phenomena. And there are lots of cases
like that. There are things you just can’t say, for some reason. So if I say, “The
mechanics fixed the cars”. And you say, “They wondered if the mechanics fixed
the cars.” You can ask questions about the cars, “How many cars did they
wonder if the mechanics fixed?” More or less okay. Suppose you want to ask a
question about the mechanics. “How many mechanics did they wonder if fixed
the cars?” Somehow it doesn’t work, can’t say that. It’s a fine thought, but you
can’t say it. Well, if you look into it in detail, the most efficient computational
rules prevent you from saying it. But for expressing thought, for communication,
it’d be better if you could say it — so that’s a conflict.
And in fact, every case of a conflict that’s known, computational efficiency wins.
The externalization is yielding all kinds of ambiguities but for simple
computational reasons, it seems that the system internally is just computing
efficiently, it doesn’t care about the externalization. Well, I haven’t made that a
very plausible, but if you spell it out it can be made quite a convincing argument
I think.
That tells something about evolution. What it strongly suggests is that in the
evolution of language, a computational system developed, and later on it was
externalized. And if you think about how a language might have evolved, you’re
almost driven to that position. At some point in human evolution, and it’s
apparently pretty recent given the archeological record — maybe last hundred
thousand years, which is nothing — at some point a computational system
emerged with had new properties, that other organisms don’t have, that has kind
of arithmetical type properties…
It enabled better thought before externalization?
Chomsky: It gives you thought. Some rewiring of the brain, that happens in a
single person, not in a group. So that person had the capacity for thought — the
group didn’t. So there isn’t any point in externalization. Later on, if this genetic
change proliferates, maybe a lot of people have it, okay then there’s a point in
figuring out a way to map it to the sensory-motor system and that’s
externalization but it’s a secondary process.
Unless the externalization and the internal thought system are
coupled in ways we just don’t predict.
Chomsky: We don’t predict, and they don’t make a lot of sense. Why should it
be connected to the external system? In fact, say your arithmetical capacity isn’t.
And there are other animals, like songbirds, which have internal computational
systems, bird song. It’s not the same system but it’s some kind of internal
computational system. And it is externalized, but sometimes it’s not. A chick in
some species acquires the song of that species but doesn’t produce it until
maturity. During that early period it has the song, but it doesn’t have the
externalization system. Actually that’s true of humans too, like a human infant
understands a lot more than it can produce — plenty of experimental evidence
for this, meaning it’s got the internal system somehow, but it can’t externalize it.
Maybe it doesn’t have enough memory, or whatever it may be.
Graham Gordon Ramsay
I’d like to close with one question about the philosophy of science. In
a recent interview, you said that part of the problem is that
scientists don’t think enough about what they’re up to. You
mentioned that you taught a philosophy of science course at MIT
and people would read, say, Willard van Orman Quine, and it would
go in one ear out the other, and people would go back doing the same
kind of science that they were doing. What are the insights that have
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 17/27
been obtained in philosophy of science that are most relevant to
scientists who are trying to let’s say, explain biology, and give an
explanatory theory rather than redescription of the phenomena?
What do you expect from such a theory, and what are the insights
that help guide science in that way? Rather than guiding it towards
behaviorism which seems to be an intuition that many, say,
neuroscientists have?
Chomsky: Philosophy of science is a very interesting field, but I don’t think it
really contribute to science, it learns from science. It tries to understand what
the sciences do, why do they achieve things, what are the wrong paths, see if we
can codify that and come to understand. What I think is valuable is the history of
science. I think we learn a lot of things from the history of science that can be
very valuable to the emerging sciences. Particularly when we realize that in say,
the emerging cognitive sciences, we really are in a kind of pre-Galilean stage. We
don’t know what we’re looking for anymore than Galileo did, and there’s a lot to
learn from that. So for example one striking fact about early science, not just
Galileo, but the Galilean breakthrough, was the recognition that simple things are
Take say, if I’m holding this here [cup of water], and say the water is boiling
[putting hand over water], the steam will rise, but if I take my hand away the
cup will fall. Well why does the cup fall and the steam rise? Well for millennia
there was a satisfactory answer to that: they’re seeking their natural place.
Like in Aristotelian physics?
Chomsky: That’s the Aristotelian physics. The best and greatest scientists
thought that was answer. Galileo allowed himself to be puzzled by it. As soon as
you allow yourself to be puzzled by it, you immediately find that all your
intuitions are wrong. Like the fall of a big mass and a small mass, and so on. All
your intuitions are wrong — there are puzzles everywhere you look. That’s
something to learn from the history of science. Take the one example that I gave
to you, “Instinctively eagles that fly swim.” Nobody ever thought that was
puzzling — yeah, why not. But if you think about it, it’s very puzzling, you’re
using a complex computation instead of a simple one. Well, if you allow yourself
to be puzzled by that, like the fall of a cup, you ask “Why?” and then you’re led
down a path to some pretty interesting answers. Like maybe linear order just
isn’t part of the computational system, which is a strong claim about the
architecture of the mind — it says it’s just part of the externalization system,
secondary, you know. And that opens up all sorts of other paths, same with
everything else.
Take another case: the difference between reduction and unification. History of
science gives some very interesting illustrations of that, like chemistry and
physics, and I think they’re quite relevant to the state of the cognitive and
neurosciences today.

YARDEN KATZ is a graduate student in the Department of Brain and Cognitive sciences at MIT,
where he studies the regulation of gene expression in the developing nervous system and in
150 Years of Misunderstanding the Civil
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 19/27
Ollddeesstt Coommuunniittyy Shhaarree _ _
Brad Arnold • 8 months ago
HMM is the ticket – hierarchical pattern recognition processing based upon evolutionary
neural nets. This is how the neocortex works. Check out Mind’s Eye. Like most
conventional views of reality, the belief that strong AI was high hanging fruit was wrong.
Shirk your anthropocentric bias – the Singularity is coming.
“There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would
mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” — Albert Einstein, 1932
“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.” – Ken Olson,
president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
3 _ 10 ”
Jus tin Colley • 8 months ago
Great interview- but the review of Skinner was in 1959, when Chomsky was still a relative
2 _ 1 ”
Daniel W ac hs s toc k • 8 months ago
“In fact, in every language in which a wh-phrase — like who, or which book, or something –
– moves to somewhere else, it moves to the left, not to the right.”
He said what?
I think the more you look, the fewer rules/laws of cognition you find.
2 _ 2 ”
Mairead _ Daniel Wachsstock • 8 months ago
I immediately thought of that same example.
What puzzles me is that Chomsky obviously knows it too, so something got
scrambled somewhere, but what?
_ 2 ”
Charles Butler _ Mairead • 8 months ago
“The horse raced past the barn fell”
In English, this is written, “The horse that raced past the barn fell”.
Chomsky’s example is pijin.
_ 1 ”
Mairead _ Charles Butler • 8 months ago
Or possibly “the horse [that was] raced past the barn, fell”, since
“race” can be used transitively or intransitively.
1 _ 1 ”
Charles Butler _ Mairead • 8 months ago
That too. In any regard he presented English speakers with a
sentence written in pijin. No surprise they didn’t get it. Pijins are
fairly incomprehensible to outsiders.
_ ”
Mairead _ Charles Butler • 8 months ago
I don’t quite see why you regard it as pidjin (I mistakenly read what
you wrote as “pinyin” at first because of the lack of the usual “d”)
The sentence seems like unexceptional English, to me. Cf “The car
driven past the barn stopped”, “The aircraft flown over the boat
landed”, etc.
2 _ ”
m w _ Mairead • 8 months ago
I think C is saying that the examples need disambiguation which is
computationally inefficient (it may take a second to do it using
context) and that language evolves to reduce that by making the
alternate forms more common and preferred eg by putting in ‘that’.
I think C believes that language evolved as thought –computation–
and was then used as communication and shows it earlier
computational bias.
“What it strongly suggests is that in the evolution of language, a
computational system developed, and later on it was externalized.”
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 20/27
computational system developed, and later on it was externalized.”
And he says,
“That’s evidence that the mapping of the internal system to the
sensory-motor system is peripheral to the workings of the
computational system. ”
“And in fact, every case of a conflict that’s known, computational
efficiency wins. The externalization is yielding all kinds of
ambiguities but for simple computational reasons, it seems that the
system internally is just computing efficiently, it doesn’t care about
the externalization.”
This is his anti-reductionist argument which he takes to be a
critique of AI and a suggestion about its slow progress as a theory
of mind.
_ ”
Mairead _ m w • 8 months ago
Eeeek! Of course, thanks. I got temporarily derailed by the
language itself rather than the computational aspects of decoding it.
_ ”
Mairead _ m w • 8 months ago
Furrfu, I got derailed again!
The original issue was Chomsky’s statement, quoted in part by
Daniel Wachsstock, that wh-phrases move to the left, not the right.
Daniel and I both thought of the contradictory “he said what?” in
which it moved to the right as an alternative to “what did he say?”.
Unlike the hard-to-parse one about the horse where at least one
backtrack is needed, “he said what” gets decoded immediately,
possibly a few milliseconds faster than the one that uses the Saxon
But Chomsky had to have known that example, so what happened?
Did he forget something, was he misquoted, are we missing
something, or, you should excuse it, what? 🙂
_ ”
KR _ Charles Butler • 7 months ago
Or: “The horse raced past the barn that fell.”
_ ”
Twiddly Dee _ Charles Butler • 2 months ago
You guys, seriously: there is an entire field of syntax and generative
grammar that studies these questions and studies them quite well.
You’re making elementary mistakes in how you are trying to
undertake these thought processes. You can’t just Plato your way
to understanding the complexity of syntax.
_ ”
Barbara H Partee _ Daniel Wachsstock • 8 months ago
That’s not movement to the right; that instance of “what” didn’t move at all. Your
example is a so-called “echo-question” – a kind of question that usually comes
right after something the other person said, and you either didn’t hear a part of it,
or you’re surprised and maybe asking for repetition to confirm that you heard right.
But the “what” will be wherever in the sentence a corresponding non-whexpression
would have been — e.g. “He took WHAT with him?”, “Those butterflies
migrate HOW far every year?” “You gave your mother-in-law WHAT for
7 _ ”
Mairead _ Barbara H Partee • 8 months ago
I’m not sure it’s clear –it’s certainly not clear to me– what Chomsky
means by “moves”. If it feels clear to you, Barbara, could you explain it?
_ ”
Aethelberht _ Mairead • 8 months ago
Consider a sentence like “John claimed that Mary likes Bill.” You
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 21/27
now ask the question: “Who did John claim that Mary likes?” “Who”
appears at the left edge of the sentence, but is the object of the
verb “likes”, and hence should instead show up all the way at the
right edge of the sentence. In the question, “who” appears even to
the left of another verb, ‘claim,’ and its subject, ‘John’.
It is this sense of movement — the deviation in the actual position of
the wh-word from its expected position based on what noun the
question is actually referring to — that Chomsky uses.
If you’re forming an analogous question about John, you’d
say: “Who claimed Mary likes Bill?” In this case, there’s no
“counterexample” to Chomsky’s claim like Daniel’s such that the
wh-phrase is moved to the right, like “Claimed that Mary likes Bill
Cases like Daniel’s isn’t a counterexample because it patterns with
a separate type of question sentences (called echo questions, as
1 _ ”
Mairead _ Aethelberht • 8 months ago
It is this sense of movement — the deviation in the actual position of
the wh-word from its expected position based on what noun the
question is actually referring to — that Chomsky uses.
Why would it be expected? Most other languages don’t encode
much meaning in word order. “Mary hit the ball” and “the ball hit
Mary” have two completely different meanings in English despite
having the same NVN construction.
But that’s not so in, e.g., Russian (Mariya pobila ball, ball pobila
Mariya) because the meaning is encoded in each word, not their
order. So where would the expectation come from?
That’s where I stumble over what he might mean. (I’m quite
convinced that he’s “a great improvement over his successors”, so
I’m happy to believe that any lack of understanding is in me, not
_ ”
Aethelberht _ Mairead • 8 months ago
There’s a logical fallacy in your argument: Just because Chomsky’s
claim is narrower than you’re taking it to be doesn’t make free order
languages a counterexample to it.
The claim is: IF a language has wh-movement from an expected
position, THEN the movement is to the left. How can a language
that fails to satisfy the “if” conditions refute Chomsky’s claim?
Russian is said to be a language where wh-questions are formed
in-place. English on the other hand has both the movement-type
wh-questions as well as the in-place type. It is only the former
which Chomsky is interested in. “Where would the expectation
come from [in Russian]?” is as meaningless a challenge as “He
said WHAT?” in English — assuming that there really is no
expectation of syntactic order in Russian.
Which leads me to the second issue: free word order is an oftmentioned
but much exaggerated claim about language. The World
Atlas of Language Structures only classifies 14% — 189/1377 — of
languages as “lacking a dominant word order.” Many languages
1 _ ”
Memory Palac e • 8 months ago
Today’s neuroscientist trying to build AI is like a blind man at a painting exhibition, feeling
the canvases to try to learn how to paint, but not even knowing if the art is figurative or
RobertSF • 8 months ago
I think a lot of this going around about AI misses the point. We don’t have to understand
how the brain works to build an AI that is good enough for our purposes. We don’t have to
build an AI that mimics the human brain at all. Our vehicles don’t walk like humans nor like
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 22/27
build an AI that mimics the human brain at all. Our vehicles don’t walk like humans nor like
horses. Our submarines don’t swim like fish, and our airplanes don’t fly like birds.
We don’t need human-like AI to seriously disrupt our world. Whenever the idea of AI threat
comes up, people start cracking the inevitable jokes about Skynet and robotic overlords.
But all that’s needed to disrupt our world is “machine intelligence,” that is, logic that solves
specific tasks.
Consider the ATM and the interactive phone call handler. They are hardly intelligent, yet
they essentially eliminated the jobs of bank teller and PBX operator. Look at IBM’s Deep
Blue chess-playing computer. Completely dumb, yet no human can beat it. Deep Blue
can’t put millions of people out of work, but other machine intelligences can.
Within a decade, we can expect American retail to go 90% self-checkout, putting 90% of
the people who ring stuff up for a living out of work. That’s about two million people. Now
think of Google driverless technology. It probably won’t become widely used in passenger
cars but instead it will disrupt the trucking industry.
Don Gilmore _ RobertSF • 8 months ago
Yes, agreed, and all very useful tools, and practical examples, but this too misses
a point or two: (1) we want better answers to mysteries such as consciousness,
self-awareness and how our brains work; (2) if you build something without
understanding it, there will be unintended consequences; (3) all these tools you
mention, how does that ever lead to a system that can re-design itself towards an
even better system that can re-design itself better, etc. until a singularity happens?
I’d hate for a singularity to occur without human understanding.
RobertSF _ Don Gilmore • 8 months ago
(1) we want better answers to mysteries such as consciousness, selfawareness
and how our brains work;
I think that’s part of the misunderstanding. AI is technology, not science.
When the Wright Brothers developed their airplane, they weren’t looking to
discover how birds flew. In fact, our understanding of aerodynamics is still
imperfect, but the technologists leave that to the scientists to figure out. As
long as the thing gets in the air and stays there, the technologists are
happy. Likewise, if the AI can drive a car, interpret an X-ray, or answer
random plain-language questions, the technologists will be happy.
I’m rather skeptical of any singularity happening any time soon. There’s no
need for it. Once machines totally displace labor, there will be little need to
go further, even if research here and there continues.
Consider automobiles. Almost any car can go 90 mph, and many can go
100 mph and even 120 mph, but that’s about where we stopped. If you
spend a boatload of money, you can get a car that does 150 mph and even
250 mph, but it will be of little practical value. And then you have the people
who design cars — virtually wheeled rockets — that can briefly do 800 mph
on the Great Salt Lake sand flats, but that’s just to prove that it can be
done. We’re never going to see those cars roll off a Honda assembly line.
Sean Allen _ RobertSF • 8 months ago
I think actually that you’re espousing the misunderstanding.
Certainly there are practical technological applications of AI that is
not modeled on human thought.
But for you to say that there isn’t a science of AI is restrictive and
sophomoric. The pursuit of understanding our cognitive process is
a science, and artificial intelligence modeled on our own intelligence
is both a tool and product of that science. It is certainly more
ambitious, and it would be rewarding in other ways than current AI
Riad Awad _ Sean Allen • 7 months ago
if you have a dictionary then you can look for “science” and see if it
apply to AI. years before anyone knew anything about AI there were
many “artificials”, like “artificial heart”, “artificial kidney”, and
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 23/27
many “artificials”, like “artificial heart”, “artificial kidney”, and
“artificial intelligence” was named after those. the science that deal
with heart and kidney is: Biology, but the people who made the
artificial heart were technicians, and they didn’t have to know
anything about the heart itself, but only what it does.
the day when anyone will know how to imitate human brain will be
the last day of humanity, for simple reason, that while artificial
heart, kidney, lung are tool that replace natural organs for a short
period and thus save their lives, AI is a tool to replace the humans
jmaurobu _ Don Gilmore • 7 months ago
I agree as well that we have built machines to achieve our known, purpose
defined needs but we have missed the bigger question and bigger potential
that Chomsky is driving for.
We are essentially taking that “brute force” approach to AI, which is we
take a huge sampling of inputs (search results, or data points) and then
filter it with huge processing power in order to achieve our objective, to
return a result based on predefined conditions (2nd level). Why this is
useful in “simple machines” like a guide missile of a CNC router, it doesn’t
allow for the machine to do anything that hasn’t been predefined in its
program, the way an animal or human can react to a situation it has never
encountered before or solve a problem it has never faced before.
If we continue to develop machines in this manner, and they one day
surpass us or at least become such an integrated part of who we are, we
then circle back to Platonic ideas of there not being such a thing as a new
or novel idea, that all ideas have existed before and you are only coming
across them for the first time for you as an individual but not for you as a
James Smith _ RobertSF • 8 months ago
There would never be driverless big rigs lmao. AI is coming a long way and it long
ago surpassed the intelligence of your average republican but it still has a ways to
go to become mainstream.
RobertSF _ James Smith • 8 months ago
You don’t say why there would never be driverless big rigs, unless you
think “lmao” is a logical argument.
Driverless technology is already being tested on California and Nevada’s
roads, streets, and highways. They’ve already logged more than 150,000
miles without a single accident, not even a tap on someone’s bumper,
which is a lot better record than most of us have. Why do you think they’re
doing that if they don’t intend to use it?
randc raw • 8 months ago
Great article Mr Katz. Thanks!
In my opinion, the goal of AI research is not now nor has ever been to understand how the
brain works nor is it to build a model of brain function. Like Chomsky’s grammar
hierarchy, AI proposes and implements informatic models that recognize patterns in
observed data. Then it processses those patterns to infer meaning and utility toward
achieving some goal. Then it reacts in a manner that brings it closer to the goal, thereby
behaving “intelligently”. It’s as unnecessary to demand that the “intelligence” process
ground itself in a biological substrate as it is to demand that the participants in an
academic debate on the merits of war must first have fought in a real battle, or must
express themselves using predicate logic, in order to produce a valid argument.
As I understand Dr Chomsky, we should approach AI by first investigating biological
mechanisms to derive scientifically grounded first principles of cognition. Only then will we
have the materiel needed to propose a model of cognition that’s expressive enough to
guide us to a scientific grounding of cognition. I don’t know that he’s wrong. Several
wizened roboticists have suggested personal experience to be essential to gain full
appreciation for the meaning of concepts (the grounding problem). I do think it’s
unnecessarily biased to suggest that a biologically grounded first principles approach to
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 24/27
Uncle_Fred _ randcraw • 8 months ago
I agree that basic, useful A.I. can be generated from statistical computational
methods. The applications for this type of software are enormous, and include
speech to text, Auto-navigating systems like Google Drive and also, search
However, the interface aspect will benefit from an emphasis on Chomsky’s
mechanisms approach. Studies show that humans interact best with other
socialized humans. This is why most people respond uncomfortably to visual and
audio representations of A.I. If we could determine the mechanisms behind the
how human intelligence operates, software responses could climb out of the
“uncanny valley.”
On the biological side, bridging the gap between mechanical computation
substrates and their human equivalents might allow us to program software more
effectively. It could dramatically improve efficiency, thus reducing power
consumption and hardware size if we understood brain computation better.
I see applications for all means tackling this problem, but statistical methods will
probably achieve product ready results quicker than the others.
ThomasVeil _ randcraw • 8 months ago
I don’t see why it has to be an “either/or” – and not even Chomsky says that we
should stop one approach for the other.
His point in linguistics is that language in humans is not created by a mere
statistical analysis – but there is rather some innate principle. And just obviously, if
we figure that principle out, then we can create much better AI for language.
By extension a similar problem applies to the other fields.
And not to forget that figuring out how our brains really work is also just
philosophically and scientifically a great goal in itself.
Patric k Kerr • 8 months ago
Great interview. I wonder if the “Turing Test” style arithmetic slip-up was kept in there
deliberately, to convince us that Chomsky is human after all.
For the record, 6 + 7 = 13 🙂
Cris tina • 8 months ago
I fully agree with Mr. Chomsky and in fact I am a bit more radical. Computer is a machine
for syntactic processing. Adding many layers of syntactic procedures does no make
semantics. Intelligence requires semantics. My statement is that who argues for AI in fact
did not understand yet what a computer is, its capacities and limitations.
Mairead _ Cristina • 8 months ago
It’s true that, except for toy domains like Shrdlu’s, we don’t yet know how to
represent the world knowledge that underlies semantics.
But there doesn’t seem to be any reason why it will always be so (except if we go
extinct because politicians continue to play status games rather than heeding
Mama’s warnings). And if we can represent it, we can certainly write programs to
use and refine that representation.
Jon Hardy _ Cristina • 7 months ago
I be to differ. Semantics or meaning arise by comparison, or references to other
things (words, objects, experiences). They are essentially pointers to other
pointers, an infinite syntactic process. The capacities and limitations of a
computer are simply in lack of the infinite.
Monic a Anders on • 8 months ago
There is a third approach to AI besides the Classical (Model-based) and the Statistical
(Model-weak) and that is to go all the way to Model Free Methods as the basis. Using
these it is possible to implement a good domain independent algorithm for Saliency,
which enables such an AI to do Reduction on its own, which is what Intelligence is really
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 25/27
which enables such an AI to do Reduction on its own, which is what Intelligence is really
about. For more, google for “Reduction Considered Harmful”, “Artificial Intuition” or
“Syntience links”.
proletaria • 8 months ago
Chomsky is a hack. He knows nothing of the field about which he is being interviewed.
This is the liberal version of O’Riley debating the existence of god. He sounds like an
absolute moron. Unfortunately, just like the angry irishman in that debate, he will come off
looking great to the hordes of unthinking followers who parrot his every stupid breath.
Diego _ proletaria • 8 months ago
Get lost.
Riad Awad _ proletaria • 7 months ago
thank you, at last i found someone saying something of value, but chomsky is not
an exception, he rather is the rule, in a society where truth is taken from authority
instead of taking authority from truth.
“A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth.” said Einstein
blackylawless _ Riad Awad • 7 months ago
Shut up!
blackylawless _ proletaria • 7 months ago
You’re post must be for the wrong article or interview. You’re a neo-Nazi hack,
whose claptrap is intended for one of Chomsky online Z-Magazine Chomsky
interviews, or online interview with Amy Goodman.
As Buck says below, “Get lost!”
Scram. Take a hike!
sansculottes _ proletaria • 5 months ago
Actually, if the question were “How can one get middle-aged white males to sit
through commercials” O’Rielly would be the one to ask. That’s his core
competency, and I recognize his talent, even if I detest his politics. Chomsky is
one of the greatest linguists alive, whether you think the state of Israel ought to
exist or not.
Albin • 8 months ago
Interesting. Good to see Chomsky back on his core competencies. It reminds me a bit of
the chess engine question, whether to try to develop grandmaster algorithms / heuristics
or use sheer computing power to run through all available possibilities for each move.
Mark Stocket _ Albin • 8 months ago
That’s a great comparison.
Gues t • 8 months ago
Absolutely fascinating!
When I had my children, I decided to embark in a little experiment of my own… I wanted
my children to be perfectly trilingual, and I read plenty of the scientific literature on the
subject, in particular Noan Chomsky’s ideas about universal grammar and the language
acquisition device. The task was not as straight forward as I thought due to a “general”
language acquisition delay in one of my children, and a learning disability in the other due
to ADHD. Still, I think I have succeeded so far with two languages, while the other is in
“stasis”. I still manage to teach one of my children how to read in the third language in only
5 minutes with the right phonetics and diction even though there was an accent.
All this was particularly difficult because I’m a single parent, and there was no way to keep
a separate set for each language. I figured that if I could make my children relate words in
different languages to the same object they would be able to learn the three at the same
time, and I think that has worked for the most part. However, words in different languages
may or may not have one-to-one correspondence, but the kids seem to get that. Here,
there’s the environmental issue because words are highly tuned to a particular

20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 26/27
there’s the environmental issue because words are highly tuned to a particular
environment and culture, and this is where language acquisition may have some blind
spots. There was also a more ‘biological’ side of language acquisition that had to see with
Olive • 8 months ago
Absolutely fascinating!
When I had my children, I decided to embark in a little experiment of my own… I wanted
my children to be perfectly trilingual, and I read plenty of the scientific literature on the
subject, in particular Noan Chomsky’s ideas about universal grammar and the language
acquisition device. The task was not as straight forward as I thought due to a “general”
language acquisition delay in one of my children, and a learning disability in the other due
to ADHD. Still, I think I have succeeded so far with two languages, while the other is in
“stasis”. I still manage to teach one of my children how to read in the third language in only
5 minutes with the right phonetics and diction even though there was an accent.
All this was particularly difficult because I’m a single parent, and there was no way to keep
a separate set for each language. I figured that if I could make my children relate words in
different languages to the same object they would be able to learn the three at the same
time, and I think that has worked for the most part. However, words in different languages
may or may not have one-to-one correspondence, but the kids seem to get that. Here,
there’s the environmental issue because words are highly tuned to a particular
environment and culture, and this is where language acquisition may have some blind
spots. There was also a more ‘biological’ side of language acquisition that had to see with
Tony _Materna • 8 months ago
Being a cofounder of a neural
network technology company in the mid 1980s, I have been startled and
disappointed at the lack of progress in developing “brain-like”
machines. 25 years later, there are still no commercial neural net based products.
The conclusion I have reached is
that there is more going on in the brain than just the strengthening of synapses.
It seems likely to me that the brain is
using quantum effects to create consciousness. If that is in any way correct, then
attempts to create ‘artificial intelligence’ will continue to be stuck where
they have begun. We will not be able to
make significant progress until we have mastered the construction and operation
of quantum computers.
Samuel H. Kenyon _ Tony_Materna • 8 months ago
So let’s get this straight. Your company and other companies failed to productize
neural nets, therefore consciousness is directly dependent on quantum effects.
Sorry, but I’m missing the logic here.
Tony_Materna _ Samuel H. Kenyon • 8 months ago
Dear Sam,
My argument is not that because artificial neural networks
have failed to produce anything useful, that leads ipso facto to the
conclusion that the brain is using quantum effects.
What I was saying is that after a quarter century of study
and development with nothing in the way of useful, i.e. commercial, results,
the hypothesis that the brain is solely or mainly using synaptic
strengthening to encode and process information may be insufficient.
Undoubtedly synaptic strengthening is some part of the brain’s signal
processing and sensor fusion, but it does not appear to lead to “thinking”,
consciousness, or any result that beats traditional signal processing or
probability analysis. Something else must be necessary to make the
existence proof we have, our brains and consciousness, work.
What else can that be? The limitations of neural networks do not point us
An alternate hypothesis can be formulated, and has been. Roger Penrose
20/06/13 Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong – Yarden Katz – The Atlantic 27/27

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